Discussion:
Laser Eye Surgery - Injured Patients, Eye Pain, Corneal Debris, UV Radiation Burns
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LASIK SOS
2003-08-18 13:16:11 UTC
Permalink
Health Warning ==> Injured Patients, Eye Pain, Corneal Debris,
Ultraviolet Radiation Burns, and Laser Eye Surgery


<== Introduction ==>

This is not an advertisement. This posting contains information of a
medical and technical nature, regarding the surgical procedure known as
"laser eye surgery."


<== COUNTING THE CASUALTIES ==>

I found out about the dangers involved in laser eye surgery the hard
way.

I trusted a person with an M.D., one of the "top LASIK surgeons" in San
Diego -- Michael Gordon at the Gordon-Binder Vision Institute -- to
perform bilateral LASIK on me for moderate near-sightedness in 1998.

At that time, I immediately found myself needing eyedrops to deal with
the constant feeling of a dirty contact lens on my left eye. Before the
surgery, I only had this feeling when I had a contact lens in my eye.
After the surgery, I have this feeling all the time -- and it has
increased in intensity.

I also found that I developed double-vision 3 months post-op --
literally, seeing 2 of each of my co-workers. I have subsequently been
diagnosed with 12 diopters of "strabismus" -- literally, a crossed left
eye.

In my opinion, LASIK Surgeon Michael Gordon lied -- more than once -- to
close the sale.

Since I began meeting other LASIK patients, I find that they have
experienced similar treatment at the hands of other LASIK surgeons. In
other words, what "us patients" are observing is that laser eye surgeons
frequently lie to patients during pre-op consultations.

Apparently, the FDA and FTC have similar concerns. Both agencies have
issued a number of admonitions to the LASIK industry regarding
under-stating the risks of LASIK surgery. I have records of such
statements for the 2002 time-frame -- and for the 1994-1995 time-frame.

I have described Doctor Gordon's behavior during his treatment of me at
this website:
http://users.tns.net/~equity/LASIK_Casualties_SD

Are there other laser eye surgery casualties in Southern California ?
Yes. In short, having laser eye surgery performed by a highly
experienced refractive surgeon is no guarantee of a satisfactory
outcome.

There are a number of ways to find out about laser eye surgery
casualties. One is to behold the sight of thousands of injured laser
eye surgeons asking for help. There are several on-line forums where
this is possible. (Reference 1)

Another way to find out about refractive surgery casualties is to go to
the courthouse and enter the names of experienced LASIK surgeons. As
further described below, I have done this

That these people have experienced real damage to their eyes after laser
eye surgery -- damage which would not have occurred if they hadn't had
the surgery -- becomes fairly obvious when one speaks with the patients,
their attorneys, or reads the records of the trial.

A few other things become obvious, too. Counting medical malpractice
and fraud lawsuits at the courthouse shows only the tip of the iceberg
of laser eye surgery casualties. And, laser eye surgeons frequently
out-lawyer their patients.

Lastly, one way to find out about casualties is to ask the LASIK
surgeons themselves. Based on my own experience with Doctor Michael
Gordon, and the possible falsification of clinical trial results by
Doctor Thomas Tooma, I believe that asking the LASIK surgeons themselves
is not an effective technique for obtaining the information needed to
make an educated choice about refractive surgery -- the real facts about
real people who have experience real damage to their eyes after laser
eye surgery.

Website About some of Perry Binder's casualties
http://users.tns.net/~equity/LASIK_Casualties_SD

Website About some of Robert Maloney's casualties
http://users.tns.net/~equity/LASIK_Casualties_LA

Website About some of Thomas Tooma's casualties
http://users.tns.net/~equity/LASIK_Casualties_OC

Webpage About About some of Glenn Kawesch's casualties -- the URL is
long, starting with "http" and ending with "rnum=5" --
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=CRSQA+group:sci.med.vision&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&

group=sci.med.vision&selm=55496c96.0209091939.7f672972%40posting.google.com&rnum=5

NOTE: If any of the websites listed above becomes unavailable, please
contact me via email at
***@yahoo.com
I would be quite willing to provide the URL's for mirror websites not
listed.

Note: In most cases, this is not a comprehensive list of the patients
who have experienced damage to their eyes after laser eye surgery
performed by the named doctors.

Thousands of laser eye surgery patients are asking for help with their
post-surgical complications at a number of on-line forums, as further
described in Reference 1.

Most of those patients experienced the primary manifestation of their
corneal disease at the time of, or shortly after, their laser eye
surgery.


<== Surgical Debris Left Embedded in the Cornea ==>

In fact, Ultraviolet radiation burns -- in the eye, as described below
-- are not the extent of the damage frequently associated with laser eye
surgery.

Many laser eye surgery patients are left with surgical debris embedded
in their cornea.

Following is an excerpt of an email I received from Doctor Robert
Maloney, one of the more experienced laser eye surgeons in Los Angeles.
The email is re-printed in its entirety in the 'References' section
(Reference 2)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"Recent clinical studies show that everyone has microscopic debris, and
as you well know, most people do not have symptoms of your severity."
(email received Feb. 20, 2003)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As is evident from reading the excerpted email, the debris which Doctor
Maloney says is embedded in patients' corneas after LASIK surgery is
conveniently considered to not cause pain, in the cases of patients that
do have significant post-op eye pain, such as myself.

I have spoken to another patient, who has stated affirmatively that they
have a metal sliver in their cornea, which is large enough that they can
see it themself in the bathroom mirror. A result of their own LASIK
surgery, also performed by a "top" laser eye surgeon in Southern
California.

How much eye pain does the patient with the metal sliver have ? Good
question.

Would you like to participate in the Experiment ? (Reference 3)


<== Ultraviolet Radiation Burns ==>

Would you stare at the sun ?

I hope not.

The sun sends a lot of radiation our way. 1367 watts per square foot
above the earth in outer space. On a really BRIGHT day, 63.5% of that
sunlight makes its way through the atmosphere ... perhaps landing on
your skin as you lay on the coral sand at some tropical beach resort.
(Reference 6)

It might feel good, but ... you wouldn't stare at it. 80 watts per
square foot ... 0.56 watts per square inch. Or, to use the terms of
laser science, 0.56 joules per square inch. (Reference 5)

Yet, according to the specifications that they have given to the FDA,
ophthalmic lasers -- the lasers used during laser eye surgery -- have a
"fluence", respectively, of .774 and 1.032 joules per square inch.
(References 4, 5, 7)

In other words, the radiation emitted by these ophthalmic lasers -- when
they are on, during the pulse, when the laser is firing directly into
the patient's eye -- is more intense than the sun on a very bright day,
as it warms your skin on that proverbial tropical beach.

I am referring to the Bausch & Lomb Technolas 217 and the VISX Star S2
and S3 lasers.

The Nidek and Summit/LADAR-vision ophthalmic lasers are also high-power
pulsed ultraviolet lasers.

In other words, it is typical, during laser eye surgery, to stare at a
radiation source which, when it is on, is brighter than the sun at the
beach, in terms of radiation intensity.

The sun emits "broadband radiation" -- in the infra-red, visible, and
ultraviolet spectrums. The laser used in laser eye surgery emits mostly
193 "nanometer" radiation. Ultraviolet, C Band, radiation. The kind of
radiation which the atmosphere filters out. The kind of radiation we
seek protection from when we put "SPF 30" sun-block on our skin, or
"UV-protected" sunglasses on our eyes.

Is the human cornea vulnerable to damage from Ultraviolet radiation ?
Yes it is, as described below. The first step in collecting this
information is a simple web-search using the terms "Ultraviolet
Radiation Burn Eye".

Both the Bausch & Lomb ophthalmic laser and the VISX laser are "pulsed"
ultraviolet lasers.

The Bausch & Lomb Technolas 217 is "on" for .000000225 seconds, or
.000000900 seconds, out of every second.

The VISX Star S2 is "on" for .000000100 seconds, out of every second.

In engineering terms, this relates to what is what is known as "duty
cycle".


<== How Much Material is Removed ? What if the Ophthalmic Laser wasn't
Pulsed -- What if it was Run Continuously ?? ==>

I ask this question because it sheds some light on the power and
radiation intensity of the laser used during laser eye surgery.

During a typical laser eye surgery, a section of corneal tissue 8
millimeters in diameter, 80 microns thick, is removed.

First, let's translate that into English units:
8 millimeters = 8 x .03937 inches = .315 inches -- about a third of an
inch.

80 microns = .080 x .03937 inches = .00315 inches -- about the thickness
of a piece of 20-weight Xerox paper.

And the ophthalmic laser is on, at most, .000000900 seconds out of every
second. (Reference 5)

To get an idea of the power of this laser -- it's ability to slice
through Flesh, Blood, and Bone -- let us ask a simple question: what
would happen if the patient was exposed to a radiation source of this
intensity, and it was continuous, not pulsed ?

To make the calculations easier, and more conservative, let's round the
duty cycle off, from .00000090, to .000001. A duty cycle of
one-millionth.

If this radiation source were left on continuously, for the duration of
a typical laser eye surgery performed on just one eye, it would vaporize
approximately this much soft tissue: a volume about 10 inches in
diameter. 3.15 inches deep. Tapered around the edges. In less than a
minute. (Reference 8)

That's a powerful laser. If it were left on continuously, it would
photo-ablate a volume of soft tissue (eye tissue and brain tissue, for
example) about the size of an adult human's head -- in under a minute.

To paraphrase Elvis Presley -- that's a "hunka hunka burnin' laser."

In short, the Bausch & Lomb, VISX, Nidek, and Summit/LADAR-Vision
Ophthalmic lasers used to perform laser eye surgery are not just pulsed
ultraviolet lasers.

They are high-powered, pulsed, ultraviolet lasers.

And the "doctor" is asking you to stare RIGHT AT IT for the duration of
hundreds of very short pulses. And the "doctor" is saying it "is safe".

That depends on the definition of "is safe".

I don't get paid to tell you that it "is safe" to stare at this
high-powered pulsed ultraviolet lasers. I am concerned because I have
seen many people experience significant, disabling, and crippling damage
to their eyes, because they made the mistake of trusting a "doctor" who
says that it "is safe" to stare at this laser.

In most cases, the "doctor" who is saying it "is safe" to stare at this
laser is receiving a fair few dollars as part of the deal.

In my opinion, those fair few dollars have blinded those "doctors" to
the risks involved in staring at high-powered, pulsed ultraviolet
lasers.


<== Many Laser Eye Surgery Patients Describe the Symptoms of an
Ultraviolet Radiation Burn -- in the Eye ==>

Many of the laser eye surgery patients with whom I have spoken describe
2 specific symptoms: A foreign-body sensation in the eye, and a painful
sensitivity to bright lights. Both of these are treated topically, and
temporarily, by applying eye-drops, and by wearing sunglasses.

Many laser eye surgery patients -- even patients with "positive
outcomes" -- in fact, have these 2 symptoms during the early post-op
period, and then the symptoms diminish over time, as the tissue of and
around the eye heals from the trauma of the surgery. For some, the
symptoms do not attenuate, over time.

For some, the symptoms escalate, over time. I find that my own symptoms
fall in this latter category. 4 years, and 10 months, at the time of
this writing.

Following are the symptoms described by an occupational safety health
organization in Canada - the symptoms associated with the use of an
arc-welder which emits significant amounts of Ultraviolet-C band
radiation.
"· pain - ranging from a mild feeling of pressure in the eyes to intense
pain in severe instances,
· tearing and reddening of the eye and membranes around the eye,
· sensation of "sand in the eye" or abnormal sensitivity to light, and
· inability to look at light sources (photophobia)." (Reference 9)

And, what does the occupational safety health organization in Canada
recommend for persons who have an Ultraviolet radiation burn from
operating an arc-welder ? Eye-drops.

In my own case, I have been describing a feeling like a dirty contact
lens in my eye since the time of my surgery. During the past 2 years,
since 2001, this discomfort has escalated to a condition of pain -- in
the eye. I also experience painful light sensitivity -- so that I am
more comfortable wearing sunglasses -- at 6 o'clock in the morning on
cloudy days. Something I certainly did not have to do pre-op.

These 3 symptoms -- the foreign body sensation, the eye pain, and the
painful light sensitivity -- are all described in my medical records,
going back to the time of my LASIK surgery.

In about March 2003, during a web-search, I found the data described in
Reference 9.

Here are the facts:
1. Every laser eye surgery patient experiences the pre-conditions for an
ultraviolet radiation burn, in the eye -- exposure of their corneas and
eyes to extremely intense C-band Ultraviolet radiation.
2. Many, if not most, laser eye surgery patients experience the symptoms
of a mild Ultraviolet Radiation Burn -- in the eye -- in the hours,
days, and weeks after their surgery.
3. Some patients experience the symptoms of a very bad Ultraviolet
Radiation burn -- in their eyes -- after laser eye surgery.
4. The human cornea is definitely vulnerable to damage from Ultraviolet
radiation. (References 7, 9, 10, 11, 12)

To quote the Canadian Ophthalmological Society (Reference 10),
"UV phototoxicity has been implicated in causing or accelerating the
progression of several diseases of the eye or its supporting structures,
including the eyelids. The following is a partial list of some of the
more common diseases involved.
Basal cell and squamous cell carcinoma, melanoma: skin cancer of the
eyelids.
Pingueculae, pterygia: conjunctival growths between the eyelids that may
encroach on the visual axis and obstruct or distort vision.
UV photokeratitis, snow blindness, arc welder's burn: acute superficial
"burn" of the cornea from high-intensity short-term exposure to UV
radiation."

A Google Search using the terms "ultraviolet radiation burn eye" can
shed more light on the subject of the human eye and Ultraviolet
Radiation Burns --
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=ultraviolet+radiation+burn+eye



<== Refractive Surgery Causes Corneal Disease ==>

Thousands of persons have now experienced a very unusual coincidence.
They have laser eye surgery, and they find themselves living with
corneal discomfort and eye pain.

Then, when they ask their laser eye surgeon about the possibility of a
causal connection between the laser eye surgery and the sudden massive
onset of the symptoms of corneal disease, those patients are frequently
told, "it's a coincidence."

For me, this is reminiscent of the situation in the tobacco industry,
before the link between tobacco and cancer was acknowledged. As we now
know, certain individuals associated with the tobacco industry worked to
hide the link between tobacco use and cancer.

In my opinion, this is exactly what is happening in the laser eye
surgery industry.

I cite two additional examples of this below. One example pertains to
advertisers objecting to television news coverage of complications from
laser eye surgery. (Reference 14) The other example pertains to the
possible falsification of clinical trial results by one of the most
experienced refractive surgeons in Southern California.

For example, I was recently contacted by San Diego television reporter
Darlynne Reyes with KSWB-TV regarding a news piece about refractive
surgery complications. We played phone tag a few times. I left a message
on her answering machine expressing my concern that her advertisers
might object to such news coverage. She subsequently left a message on
my answering machine at work. In that message, she stated that she had
met with her editor, that KSWB-TV had run a similar piece previously,
and that KSWB-TV advertisers had, indeed, objected strongly to KSWB
television coverage of complications from refractive surgery.

Below, I have placed a transcript of the telephone message that Darlynne
Reyes left on my answering machine. (Reference 14)

Somehow, I have a feeling that it wasn't a car dealer that objected to
KSWB-TV's previous news coverage of complications from laser eye
surgery. In my opinion, the advertisers that objected were "doctors"
that are trying to sell laser eye surgery. In order to sell laser eye
surgery, those advertisers need for potential customers to believe that
laser eye surgery is "safe", in the same sense that getting a tooth
filled is safe.

Well, I can tell you for sure. Laser eye surgery is NOT safe. If you
don't believe me, please read this account, my plea for help for a
patient of one of the most experienced refractive surgeons in Southern
California, Thomas Tooma in Newport Beach.

http://www.lasiksos.com/worst-case.htm

Early in the year 2001, it was discovered that the patient I have
referred to as "Julie" has large quantities of metal dust embedded in
her corneas. She was not born with metal dust in her corneas. The only
time that I can think of when metal dust could have been deposited in
her lamellar interface -- below the flap -- is at the time the flap was
cut -- at the time of her laser eye surgery. Which was performed by
TLC-affiliated Newport Beach laser eye surgeon Doctor Thomas Tooma early
in the year 1999. One of the most experienced, highly regarded laser eye
surgeons in Southern California.

This patient has lived with constant, excruciating eye pain since the
day of her laser eye surgery. This patient spends most of her time with
her eyes closed. This patient can also see a Snellen chart, without
contact lenses. What good is seeing a Snellen chart if your eyes hurt so
much you have to keep them closed all the time ?

Again and again, I am told by Tooma's defenders and salespeople that he
is "one of the best". If "one of the best" can leave a patient crippled
with constant eye pain -- then I suggest it's time to call a "Time Out."

Is there a Doctor in the House ?

Would you like to participate in the Experiment ? (Reference 3)


<== Did Doctor Thomas Tooma Alter the Results of a Clinical Trial ?? ==>

Unfortunately, the plot thickens. The patient with the metal dust
embedded in their corneas, and the constant eye-pain, was told that
their LASIK surgery was part of a clinical trial. That clinical trial
was conducted in conjunction with Loma Linda University. When we called
LLU to request a copy of the record of that patient's participation in
that clinical trial, we were told that there was NO RECORD of that
patient's participation in that clinical trial.

In my opinion, the logical explanation for this is that Doctor Tooma
removed that patient's record from the records of that clinical trial.

Subsequently, given that that patient's surgery was allegedly performed
using a Technolas 116 and that Technolas is owned by Bausch & Lomb, I
perused the Bausch & Lomb literature. Lo and behold, there's Doctor
Tooma himself in a recent Bausch & Lomb annual report.

Now, I'm a design engineer -- you know, one of those people who enjoyed
calculus classes in high school. I know that equipment manufacturers
loan expensive equipment to potential customers -- in this case, laser
eye surgeons.

I'm also a human being. And common sense tells me that you don't get
your picture in an annual report by being loaned an expensive ophthalmic
laser workstation, and using it to cripple a patient. You can, however,
get your picture in an annual report by borrowing the surgical
workstation, and reporting back that "it works great" -- even when it
most clearly doesn't.


<== The "Standard of Care" in Refractive Surgery ==>

As you may have deduced if you have read this far, it is my opinion and
observation, based on about 5 years of observing, that the "standard of
care" in refractive surgery is far below the standard of care in most
other fields of medicine. In other words, the assumption that we make
about doctors, that they would not knowingly place our health at risk,
does not, in my opinion, apply in the field of refractive surgery.

In short, in my opinion, based on 5 years of observation, many of those
who are considered to be the "best in the business" of refractive
surgery can not be trusted with the health of anyone's eyes.


<== Is All-laser Eye Surgery "Safer" ?? ==>

I am in possession of an email from a Boston-area patient who is
experiencing continued eye-pain 1 1/2 months after their initial
surgery, which was performed using the Intralase laser to cut the flap,
and an ophthalmic laser to perform the ablation.

To quote brief excerpts from that patient's recent emails, they are
experiencing a "foreign body sensation" in the eye, eye "pain", and a
feeling of "pressure" in the eye" -- the exact symptoms of an
Ultraviolet Radiation Burn. After all-laser eye surgery.

My feeling is that the laser eye surgery industry needs to mobilize
itself to help this patient, and all other injured laser eye surgery
patients.

Additionally, the experience of one of Thomas Tooma's patients is
represented online at this URL:
http://users.tns.net/~equity/LASIK_Casualties_OC/NavTooma.htm

That patient is now blind in one eye. They experienced a broken major
blood vessel in the eye -- shortly after their own LASIK surgery. The
broken blood vessel is believed to have occurred because of the tissue
trauma induced by the suction ring (the device used to immobilize the
eye) and the speculum (the device used to move the eyelid out of the
way.) During "all-laser eye surgery", both the suction ring and the
speculum are used. In other words, what happened to Tooma's patient, the
human being associated with Orange County case #01CC06832, can happen to
any all-laser eye surgery patient.

So, too, are all laser eye surgery patients vulnerable to the damaging
effects of Ultraviolet Radiation, which is known to be both carcinogenic
(causing cancer) and cataractogenic (causing cataracts) (References 7,
9, 10, 11, 12)


<== Closing Statements ==>

Is it ethical to give prospective laser eye surgery patients ALL the
information about refractive surgery casualties ? I believe so -- it
is ethical to provide prospective patients with this information.

In short, it is my request that the refractive surgery industry adopt
the following goals as its own.

1) Make the treatment of injured patients a top priority. The patients
with the most eye pain go to the front of the line.

2) Given the evident lack of mature medical solutions for patients
injured by laser eye surgery, make the development of those solutions a
top priority -- more important than selling new surgeries and recklessly
endangering the eye health of new patients.

3) Fully disclose to all prospective patients the entire depth and
breadth of all known adverse outcomes from laser eye surgery. In other
words, count the casualties, and tell prospective patients about those
casualties. Present the information not as something that COULD happen,
but as something that HAS happened, after surgery by almost all of the
"top" refractive surgeons.

Sincerely,

~ Roger ~

Roger E. Bratt

http://www.lasikSOS.com/

Copyright 2003 Roger E. Bratt -- All Rights Reserved.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This is Not an Advertisement for any of the following persons or
organizations:
Doctor Michael Gordon
Doctor Perry Binder
Doctor Thomas Tooma
Doctor Robert Maloney
Doctor Glenn Kawesch
Bausch and Lomb
VISX
Summit Technology
Nidek
TLC Laser Eye Centers
Loma Linda University
KSWB-TV
Intralase
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

REFERENCES.

( Reference 1 ) Counting the Casualties, in medical articles, online
forums, personal websites, Medical Foundations, and recently published
articles in the print media:

Patients with Injured Eyes, Asking for Help.

The online forum at the Surgical Eyes Foundation
http://surgicaleyes.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic

The "LASIK Disaster" website. This patient experienced "corneal melt" -
an inflammation that was not diagnosed in the early stages. After about
8 surgeries to deal with the messy situation, her cornea is finally
stabilized, though an extra 100 microns thinner.
http://www.lasikdisaster.com/

LASIK Info Center
http://www.lasikinfocenter.net/

The LASIK SOS Website
http://www.lasikSOS.com

The online forum, about LASIK complications, operated by Dr. Gerald Horn
at the Chicago Laser Center
http://www.lasikprk.com/VisionPlaceIII/bb/bbNOW.htm

USENET newsgroups "sci.med.vision" and "alt.lasik-eyes"
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=sci.med.vision&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en

http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=alt.lasik-eyes&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

Wendy Lyons Sunshine's article about LASIK casualties in Northern
California, "A Pain in the Eye That's Forever"
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/issues/2003-04-23/feature.html/1/index.html

Wendy Lyons Sunshine's article about LASIK casualties in the Dallas
Texas area, "Shattered Sight, Shattered Lives"
http://www.fwweekly.com/issues/2003-02-20/feature.html/page1.html


( Reference 2 ) Email received from Doctor Robert Maloney Regarding
Debris Embedded in the Cornea During LASIK.

NOTES ...
1. The Doctor's comments below were made in the context of a
conversation about my own post-op complications after LASIK surgery.
2. I have masked Doctor Maloney's contact information using ***
characters. I have also removed the mailing address and fax and phone
number.
3. Normally, I keep emails confidential. However, this email is of
particular interest. Doctor Maloney makes a statement which I believe
all laser eye surgery patients ought to hear BEFORE they have surgery --
that corneal debris is a frequent side effect of LASIK surgery.
4. Additionally, it is interesting to note, that because some patients
apparently do have corneal debris without eye pain, in the case of
patients that do develop eye pain after LASIK, this same debris is for
some reason considered to not be a problem -- to not be a source of
inflammation.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"From: drmaloney@*************.com
To: ***@yahoo.com
Subject: RE: LASIK Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 06:28:47 -0800

Would you like me to help you find someone in the area to do confocal
microscopy on your cornea? To be honest I doubt very much that embedded
debris is the cause of your troubles. Recent clinical studies show that
everyone has microscopic debris, and as you well know, most people do
not
have symptoms of your severity.

I appreciate the issue of delicacy in discussing my patients, but would
you
be comfortable talking in general terms rather than discussing specific
patients?

Robert K. Maloney, M.D.
Maloney Vision Institute"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



( Reference 3 ) In this context, "Would you like to participate in the
Experiment ?" is a rhetorical construct. The most heart-felt advice I
could give you is -- laser eye surgery is one very poorly-administered
experiment that I suggest you NOT participate in.


( Reference 4 ) Bausch & Lomb FDA Filing for the Technolas 217
Ophthalmic Laser

Laser Wavelength 193 nm
Laser Pulse Duration 18 nanoseconds
Laser Head Repetition Rate 50 Hz
Effective Corneal Repetition Rate 12.5 Hz
Fluence (at the eye) 120 mJ/cm2
Range of Ablation Diameter 2.0 to 2.05 mm

http://www.accessdata2.fda.gov/Google/fda_search.pl?client=
fdagov&site=fdagov&restrict=&searchselector=&q=Technolas+217
Search yielded a document named "P990027S002b.doc" when performed June
7, 2003.

Ref.
http://www.fda.gov/search.html

These numbers give 2 options to derive peak power from average power -
does the laser fire 12.5 pulses at the patient's eye every second, or 50
pulses ? I emailed Bausch & Lomb asking for technical input; this matter
has not yet been clarified. Therefore I shall perform the calculations
for both cases.


( Reference 5 ) Translating from milli-watts per square centimeter to
milli-watts per square inch

Power for lasers is frequently expressed using an energy term (joules),
instead of a power term (watts).

120 mJ/cm^2 ==> 120 mW/cm^2

Radiation Source: ophthlamic laser which fires 12.5 pulses 18
nano-seconds long per second with a stated fluence of 120 mJ/cm^2

CW (continuous wave) or pulsed ? : Pulsed
Duty Cycle: .000000225, 12.5 pulses per second ... each pulse is 18
nanoseconds long.
"Fluence", Power Density of laser beam: 120 milli-watts per square
centimeter - 774 milli-watts per square inch - about 3/4 of a watt per
square inch.
Power Density: .774 watts per square inch, about 3/4 of a watt per
square inch.
Peak Watts per Square Inch, if the 120 milli-Joules specification is a
physical average: 3,440,000
Beam Width: 2 millimeters, about 1/ 12 of an inch

Radiation Source: ophthlamic laser which fires 50 pulses 18 nano-seconds
long per second with a stated fluence of 120 mJ/cm^2

CW (continuous wave) or pulsed ? : Pulsed
Duty Cycle: .00000090, 50 pulses per second ... each pulse is 18
nanoseconds long.
Power Density: .774 watts per square inch, about 3/4 of a watt per
square inch.
Peak Watts per Square inch, if the 120 milli-Joules specification is a
physical average: 860,000
Beam Width: 2 millimeters, about 1/ 12 of an inch


( Reference 6 ) Radiation Source: The Sun

CW (continuous wave) or pulsed ? : CW
Duty Cycle: 100%
Average Watts per square meter, in outer space: 1367
http://stratus.ssec.wisc.edu/streamer_web/userman/solar.html

Amount of radiation "absorbed at the surface": 51%
http://www.geog.ouc.bc.ca/physgeog/contents/7f.html

Average Watts per square meter, on the average beach: 697
Average Watts per square foot, on the average beach: 65
Average Watts per square foot, on the beach, at the equator: up to 90
Average Watts per square foot, at 29,000 feet elevation, at the equator:
TBD
Average Watts per square foot, term used in comparison with excimer
laser: 80
(Note: one of the goals of the analysis is to express the ratio as
conservatively as possible, that is, to not over-state the ratio when
comparing the ophthalmic excimer laser to the sun.)
Average Watts per square inch, term used in comparison with excimer
laser: .56 watts per square inch
Amount of solar radiation "absorbed at the surface" if .56 watts is
absorbed at the surface: 63.5%

Frequency Spectrum of the Sun: Broadband - Infrared, Visible,
Ultraviolet


( Reference 7 ) VISX FDA Filing for the Star S2 Ophthalmic Laser

http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/pdf/p930016s014b.doc

V. DEVICE DESCRIPTION
A. Laser System
"The device used in the clinical study was the VISX STAR S2 Excimer
Laser System for which a full description can be found in the SSED for
supplement 7. The excimer is an argon-fluoride laser that generates
pulses at 193 nm wavelength. The output of the excimer laser also has
the following characteristics: fluence of 160 mJ/cm2; 20 nanoseconds
pulse duration; and, pulse repetition rate of up to 10 Hz."
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Power for lasers is frequently expressed using an energy term (joules),
instead of a power term (watts).
160 mJ/cm2 ==> 160 mW/cm2
160 mW/cm2
= 1032 milli-watts per square inch
Average Watts per square inch for the sun, term used in comparison with
excimer laser:
.56 watts per square inch
= 560 milli-watts per square inch

( Reference 8 )

The area of a surface varies with the square of the radius. To increase
the area by a factor of 1000, the radius is increased 31.6 times.


( Reference 9 )

Canadian Center for Occupational Health Safety (CCOHS)

"Occupational Safety Guidelines regarding Exposure to Ultraviolet-C Band
Radiation during Arc Welding."

"Certain types of UV radiation can produce an injury to the surface and
mucous membrane (conjunctiva) of the eye called "arc eye," "welders'
eye" or "arc flash." These names are common names for "conjunctivitis" -
an inflammation of the mucous membrane of the front of the eye. The
symptoms include
· pain - ranging from a mild feeling of pressure in the eyes to intense
pain in severe instances,
· tearing and reddening of the eye and membranes around the eye,
· sensation of "sand in the eye" or abnormal sensitivity to light, and
· inability to look at light sources (photophobia)."


( Reference 10 )

Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility, in Virginia --
http://www.jlab.org/ehs/manual/EHSbook-465.html

"Cornea
An important function of the cornea is to focus light. Damage to the
cornea is caused by exposure to ultraviolet and far infrared radiation.
The cornea is most susceptible to damage from ultraviolet light. Over
exposure to ultraviolet burn light can cause photokeratitus (also known
as Welder's flash, arc eye, snow blindness). Signs of photokeratitus
include redness, tearing and discharge from the mucous membrane that
lines the inner surface of the eyelid. Symptoms include an acutely
painful sensation of gritty material in the eye."


( Reference 11 )

Department of Environmental Health & Safety, at UC-Davis --
http://ehs.ucdavis.edu/sftynet/sn-106.html

"The cornea of the eye is composed of a thin layer of specialized
epithelia cells. These cells can also absorb UV radiation, resulting in
tiny lesions on the cornea that may not be felt for several hours after
exposure. The sensation is much like having sand in your eye. Known as
photokeratitis, welders flash or snow blindness, the effects can last up
to 48 hours but subsides as the cells of the cornea rebuild. Although
most UV radiation that enters the eye is absorbed in the cornea,
molecular changes can occur in the lens as photons bombard proteins and
change their configuration, resulting in cataract formation."


( Reference 12 )

The Canadian Ophthalmological Society
http://www.eyesite.ca/english/program-and-services/policy-statements-guidelines/UV-radiation-eye.htm

"UV phototoxicity has been implicated in causing or accelerating the
progression of several diseases of the eye or its supporting structures,
including the eyelids. The following is a partial list of some of the
more common diseases involved.
Basal cell and squamous cell carcinoma, melanoma: skin cancer of the
eyelids.
Pingueculae, pterygia: conjunctival growths between the eyelids that may
encroach on the visual axis and obstruct or distort vision.
UV photokeratitis, snow blindness, arc welder's burn: acute superficial
"burn" of the cornea from high-intensity short-term exposure to UV
radiation.
Spheroidal degeneration, Labrador keratopathy: loss of corneal clarity
from long-term exposure to UV radiation.
Cataracts: opacification of the crystalline lens of the eye.
Eclipse or solar retinopathy: damage to the retina from acute exposure
during an eclipse or while gazing directly at the sun.
Macular degeneration: central retinal damage in the part of the retina
responsible for the best sight.
Acceleration of the progression of the pigmentary retinopathies
(retinitis pigmentosa), iritis (intraocular inflammation) or cystoid
macular edema (central fluid accumulation in the retina)."


( Reference 14 )

The initial email from KSWB reporter Darlynne Reyes.
NOTES ...
1. 99.99% of the time, I treat incoming email as sacrosanct and
confidential. However, when the email is able to shed light on a public
health epidemic which the laser eye surgery would not like publicized, I
make exceptions to that rule.
2. I have masked Ms. Reyes' contact information using "*" characters. I
have also removed the phone number.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"From: "Reyes, Darlynne" Dmreyes@*******.com
To: "'***@yahoo.com'" ***@yahoo.com
Subject: Lasik surgery
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:05:02 -0500

Dear Roger,

My name is Darlynne Reyes and I am a reporter at KSWB-TV. I am currently

doing research for a possible story on LASIK eye surgery and I came
across
your website. I would like to talk to you more about this topic. Would
you please give me a call? I'm hoping you can help me out or point me
in the right direction.

My work phone number is: <excised>. Thanks for your time!!

Darlynne Reyes
KSWB-TV
Reporter"
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Phone message from Darlynne Reyes, message left on work phone
approximately May 22, 2003

"Hey Roger
it's Darlynne Reyes calling from KSWB
Thanks for ... uhh ... returning my call
I appreciate that
and ... uh ... actually it's kind of funny that you would leave that
message for me
as far as ... uh ... you being curious what our advertisers would say
because ... uh ... (laughter)
when you had left me that message I talked to my news director
and ... uhh ... that's actually ... uhhh ... exactly what she talked to
me about
and apparently we have done this story before I came on board here
and ... uhh ... there was actually some ... uh ... big problems with the
piece (laughter)
so unfortunately I guess I will not be doing this piece ... uhhh ... for
next month
even though i had hoped to and (in-audible)
Doesn't seem like it's in the cards ... oh well ...
thank you so much Roger
and ... uhh ... I appreciate it and ... uhh ...
maybe we'll work together on some other type o' story
in the meantime thanks for returning my call
OK talk to you later bye bye."


( Reference 15 ) Copyright Statement & Home Page for the analysis
contained in this email.

Copyright 2003 Roger E. Bratt -- All Rights Reserved.

This communication has been be re-published at the home page for LASIK
SOS.com, at this URL --
http://www.lasikSOS.com
Richard Ness
2003-08-18 14:57:43 UTC
Permalink
Now let's talk about the multitudes of people that think
LASIK is a MIRACLE and what a difference it made in their lives.

Me included. I would have it done again, in a heartbeat...
Post by LASIK SOS
Health Warning ==> Injured Patients, Eye Pain, Corneal Debris,
Ultraviolet Radiation Burns, and Laser Eye Surgery
<== Introduction ==>
This is not an advertisement. This posting contains information of a
medical and technical nature, regarding the surgical procedure known as
"laser eye surgery."
<== COUNTING THE CASUALTIES ==>
I found out about the dangers involved in laser eye surgery the hard
way.
I trusted a person with an M.D., one of the "top LASIK surgeons" in San
Diego -- Michael Gordon at the Gordon-Binder Vision Institute -- to
perform bilateral LASIK on me for moderate near-sightedness in 1998.
At that time, I immediately found myself needing eyedrops to deal with
the constant feeling of a dirty contact lens on my left eye. Before the
surgery, I only had this feeling when I had a contact lens in my eye.
After the surgery, I have this feeling all the time -- and it has
increased in intensity.
I also found that I developed double-vision 3 months post-op --
literally, seeing 2 of each of my co-workers. I have subsequently been
diagnosed with 12 diopters of "strabismus" -- literally, a crossed left
eye.
In my opinion, LASIK Surgeon Michael Gordon lied -- more than once -- to
close the sale.
Since I began meeting other LASIK patients, I find that they have
experienced similar treatment at the hands of other LASIK surgeons. In
other words, what "us patients" are observing is that laser eye surgeons
frequently lie to patients during pre-op consultations.
Apparently, the FDA and FTC have similar concerns. Both agencies have
issued a number of admonitions to the LASIK industry regarding
under-stating the risks of LASIK surgery. I have records of such
statements for the 2002 time-frame -- and for the 1994-1995 time-frame.
I have described Doctor Gordon's behavior during his treatment of me at
http://users.tns.net/~equity/LASIK_Casualties_SD
Are there other laser eye surgery casualties in Southern California ?
Yes. In short, having laser eye surgery performed by a highly
experienced refractive surgeon is no guarantee of a satisfactory
outcome.
There are a number of ways to find out about laser eye surgery
casualties. One is to behold the sight of thousands of injured laser
eye surgeons asking for help. There are several on-line forums where
this is possible. (Reference 1)
Another way to find out about refractive surgery casualties is to go to
the courthouse and enter the names of experienced LASIK surgeons. As
further described below, I have done this
That these people have experienced real damage to their eyes after laser
eye surgery -- damage which would not have occurred if they hadn't had
the surgery -- becomes fairly obvious when one speaks with the patients,
their attorneys, or reads the records of the trial.
A few other things become obvious, too. Counting medical malpractice
and fraud lawsuits at the courthouse shows only the tip of the iceberg
of laser eye surgery casualties. And, laser eye surgeons frequently
out-lawyer their patients.
Lastly, one way to find out about casualties is to ask the LASIK
surgeons themselves. Based on my own experience with Doctor Michael
Gordon, and the possible falsification of clinical trial results by
Doctor Thomas Tooma, I believe that asking the LASIK surgeons themselves
is not an effective technique for obtaining the information needed to
make an educated choice about refractive surgery -- the real facts about
real people who have experience real damage to their eyes after laser
eye surgery.
Website About some of Perry Binder's casualties
http://users.tns.net/~equity/LASIK_Casualties_SD
Website About some of Robert Maloney's casualties
http://users.tns.net/~equity/LASIK_Casualties_LA
Website About some of Thomas Tooma's casualties
http://users.tns.net/~equity/LASIK_Casualties_OC
Webpage About About some of Glenn Kawesch's casualties -- the URL is
long, starting with "http" and ending with "rnum=5" --
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=CRSQA+group:sci.med.vision&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&
group=sci.med.vision&selm=55496c96.0209091939.7f672972%40posting.google.com&
rnum=5
Post by LASIK SOS
NOTE: If any of the websites listed above becomes unavailable, please
contact me via email at
I would be quite willing to provide the URL's for mirror websites not
listed.
Note: In most cases, this is not a comprehensive list of the patients
who have experienced damage to their eyes after laser eye surgery
performed by the named doctors.
Thousands of laser eye surgery patients are asking for help with their
post-surgical complications at a number of on-line forums, as further
described in Reference 1.
Most of those patients experienced the primary manifestation of their
corneal disease at the time of, or shortly after, their laser eye
surgery.
<== Surgical Debris Left Embedded in the Cornea ==>
In fact, Ultraviolet radiation burns -- in the eye, as described below
-- are not the extent of the damage frequently associated with laser eye
surgery.
Many laser eye surgery patients are left with surgical debris embedded
in their cornea.
Following is an excerpt of an email I received from Doctor Robert
Maloney, one of the more experienced laser eye surgeons in Los Angeles.
The email is re-printed in its entirety in the 'References' section
(Reference 2)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
Post by LASIK SOS
"Recent clinical studies show that everyone has microscopic debris, and
as you well know, most people do not have symptoms of your severity."
(email received Feb. 20, 2003)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
Post by LASIK SOS
As is evident from reading the excerpted email, the debris which Doctor
Maloney says is embedded in patients' corneas after LASIK surgery is
conveniently considered to not cause pain, in the cases of patients that
do have significant post-op eye pain, such as myself.
I have spoken to another patient, who has stated affirmatively that they
have a metal sliver in their cornea, which is large enough that they can
see it themself in the bathroom mirror. A result of their own LASIK
surgery, also performed by a "top" laser eye surgeon in Southern
California.
How much eye pain does the patient with the metal sliver have ? Good
question.
Would you like to participate in the Experiment ? (Reference 3)
<== Ultraviolet Radiation Burns ==>
Would you stare at the sun ?
I hope not.
The sun sends a lot of radiation our way. 1367 watts per square foot
above the earth in outer space. On a really BRIGHT day, 63.5% of that
sunlight makes its way through the atmosphere ... perhaps landing on
your skin as you lay on the coral sand at some tropical beach resort.
(Reference 6)
It might feel good, but ... you wouldn't stare at it. 80 watts per
square foot ... 0.56 watts per square inch. Or, to use the terms of
laser science, 0.56 joules per square inch. (Reference 5)
Yet, according to the specifications that they have given to the FDA,
ophthalmic lasers -- the lasers used during laser eye surgery -- have a
"fluence", respectively, of .774 and 1.032 joules per square inch.
(References 4, 5, 7)
In other words, the radiation emitted by these ophthalmic lasers -- when
they are on, during the pulse, when the laser is firing directly into
the patient's eye -- is more intense than the sun on a very bright day,
as it warms your skin on that proverbial tropical beach.
I am referring to the Bausch & Lomb Technolas 217 and the VISX Star S2
and S3 lasers.
The Nidek and Summit/LADAR-vision ophthalmic lasers are also high-power
pulsed ultraviolet lasers.
In other words, it is typical, during laser eye surgery, to stare at a
radiation source which, when it is on, is brighter than the sun at the
beach, in terms of radiation intensity.
The sun emits "broadband radiation" -- in the infra-red, visible, and
ultraviolet spectrums. The laser used in laser eye surgery emits mostly
193 "nanometer" radiation. Ultraviolet, C Band, radiation. The kind of
radiation which the atmosphere filters out. The kind of radiation we
seek protection from when we put "SPF 30" sun-block on our skin, or
"UV-protected" sunglasses on our eyes.
Is the human cornea vulnerable to damage from Ultraviolet radiation ?
Yes it is, as described below. The first step in collecting this
information is a simple web-search using the terms "Ultraviolet
Radiation Burn Eye".
Both the Bausch & Lomb ophthalmic laser and the VISX laser are "pulsed"
ultraviolet lasers.
The Bausch & Lomb Technolas 217 is "on" for .000000225 seconds, or
.000000900 seconds, out of every second.
The VISX Star S2 is "on" for .000000100 seconds, out of every second.
In engineering terms, this relates to what is what is known as "duty
cycle".
<== How Much Material is Removed ? What if the Ophthalmic Laser wasn't
Pulsed -- What if it was Run Continuously ?? ==>
I ask this question because it sheds some light on the power and
radiation intensity of the laser used during laser eye surgery.
During a typical laser eye surgery, a section of corneal tissue 8
millimeters in diameter, 80 microns thick, is removed.
8 millimeters = 8 x .03937 inches = .315 inches -- about a third of an
inch.
80 microns = .080 x .03937 inches = .00315 inches -- about the thickness
of a piece of 20-weight Xerox paper.
And the ophthalmic laser is on, at most, .000000900 seconds out of every
second. (Reference 5)
To get an idea of the power of this laser -- it's ability to slice
through Flesh, Blood, and Bone -- let us ask a simple question: what
would happen if the patient was exposed to a radiation source of this
intensity, and it was continuous, not pulsed ?
To make the calculations easier, and more conservative, let's round the
duty cycle off, from .00000090, to .000001. A duty cycle of
one-millionth.
If this radiation source were left on continuously, for the duration of
a typical laser eye surgery performed on just one eye, it would vaporize
approximately this much soft tissue: a volume about 10 inches in
diameter. 3.15 inches deep. Tapered around the edges. In less than a
minute. (Reference 8)
That's a powerful laser. If it were left on continuously, it would
photo-ablate a volume of soft tissue (eye tissue and brain tissue, for
example) about the size of an adult human's head -- in under a minute.
To paraphrase Elvis Presley -- that's a "hunka hunka burnin' laser."
In short, the Bausch & Lomb, VISX, Nidek, and Summit/LADAR-Vision
Ophthalmic lasers used to perform laser eye surgery are not just pulsed
ultraviolet lasers.
They are high-powered, pulsed, ultraviolet lasers.
And the "doctor" is asking you to stare RIGHT AT IT for the duration of
hundreds of very short pulses. And the "doctor" is saying it "is safe".
That depends on the definition of "is safe".
I don't get paid to tell you that it "is safe" to stare at this
high-powered pulsed ultraviolet lasers. I am concerned because I have
seen many people experience significant, disabling, and crippling damage
to their eyes, because they made the mistake of trusting a "doctor" who
says that it "is safe" to stare at this laser.
In most cases, the "doctor" who is saying it "is safe" to stare at this
laser is receiving a fair few dollars as part of the deal.
In my opinion, those fair few dollars have blinded those "doctors" to
the risks involved in staring at high-powered, pulsed ultraviolet
lasers.
<== Many Laser Eye Surgery Patients Describe the Symptoms of an
Ultraviolet Radiation Burn -- in the Eye ==>
Many of the laser eye surgery patients with whom I have spoken describe
2 specific symptoms: A foreign-body sensation in the eye, and a painful
sensitivity to bright lights. Both of these are treated topically, and
temporarily, by applying eye-drops, and by wearing sunglasses.
Many laser eye surgery patients -- even patients with "positive
outcomes" -- in fact, have these 2 symptoms during the early post-op
period, and then the symptoms diminish over time, as the tissue of and
around the eye heals from the trauma of the surgery. For some, the
symptoms do not attenuate, over time.
For some, the symptoms escalate, over time. I find that my own symptoms
fall in this latter category. 4 years, and 10 months, at the time of
this writing.
Following are the symptoms described by an occupational safety health
organization in Canada - the symptoms associated with the use of an
arc-welder which emits significant amounts of Ultraviolet-C band
radiation.
"· pain - ranging from a mild feeling of pressure in the eyes to intense
pain in severe instances,
· tearing and reddening of the eye and membranes around the eye,
· sensation of "sand in the eye" or abnormal sensitivity to light, and
· inability to look at light sources (photophobia)." (Reference 9)
And, what does the occupational safety health organization in Canada
recommend for persons who have an Ultraviolet radiation burn from
operating an arc-welder ? Eye-drops.
In my own case, I have been describing a feeling like a dirty contact
lens in my eye since the time of my surgery. During the past 2 years,
since 2001, this discomfort has escalated to a condition of pain -- in
the eye. I also experience painful light sensitivity -- so that I am
more comfortable wearing sunglasses -- at 6 o'clock in the morning on
cloudy days. Something I certainly did not have to do pre-op.
These 3 symptoms -- the foreign body sensation, the eye pain, and the
painful light sensitivity -- are all described in my medical records,
going back to the time of my LASIK surgery.
In about March 2003, during a web-search, I found the data described in
Reference 9.
1. Every laser eye surgery patient experiences the pre-conditions for an
ultraviolet radiation burn, in the eye -- exposure of their corneas and
eyes to extremely intense C-band Ultraviolet radiation.
2. Many, if not most, laser eye surgery patients experience the symptoms
of a mild Ultraviolet Radiation Burn -- in the eye -- in the hours,
days, and weeks after their surgery.
3. Some patients experience the symptoms of a very bad Ultraviolet
Radiation burn -- in their eyes -- after laser eye surgery.
4. The human cornea is definitely vulnerable to damage from Ultraviolet
radiation. (References 7, 9, 10, 11, 12)
To quote the Canadian Ophthalmological Society (Reference 10),
"UV phototoxicity has been implicated in causing or accelerating the
progression of several diseases of the eye or its supporting structures,
including the eyelids. The following is a partial list of some of the
more common diseases involved.
Basal cell and squamous cell carcinoma, melanoma: skin cancer of the
eyelids.
Pingueculae, pterygia: conjunctival growths between the eyelids that may
encroach on the visual axis and obstruct or distort vision.
UV photokeratitis, snow blindness, arc welder's burn: acute superficial
"burn" of the cornea from high-intensity short-term exposure to UV
radiation."
A Google Search using the terms "ultraviolet radiation burn eye" can
shed more light on the subject of the human eye and Ultraviolet
Radiation Burns --
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&q=ultraviolet+radiation+burn+eye
Post by LASIK SOS
<== Refractive Surgery Causes Corneal Disease ==>
Thousands of persons have now experienced a very unusual coincidence.
They have laser eye surgery, and they find themselves living with
corneal discomfort and eye pain.
Then, when they ask their laser eye surgeon about the possibility of a
causal connection between the laser eye surgery and the sudden massive
onset of the symptoms of corneal disease, those patients are frequently
told, "it's a coincidence."
For me, this is reminiscent of the situation in the tobacco industry,
before the link between tobacco and cancer was acknowledged. As we now
know, certain individuals associated with the tobacco industry worked to
hide the link between tobacco use and cancer.
In my opinion, this is exactly what is happening in the laser eye
surgery industry.
I cite two additional examples of this below. One example pertains to
advertisers objecting to television news coverage of complications from
laser eye surgery. (Reference 14) The other example pertains to the
possible falsification of clinical trial results by one of the most
experienced refractive surgeons in Southern California.
For example, I was recently contacted by San Diego television reporter
Darlynne Reyes with KSWB-TV regarding a news piece about refractive
surgery complications. We played phone tag a few times. I left a message
on her answering machine expressing my concern that her advertisers
might object to such news coverage. She subsequently left a message on
my answering machine at work. In that message, she stated that she had
met with her editor, that KSWB-TV had run a similar piece previously,
and that KSWB-TV advertisers had, indeed, objected strongly to KSWB
television coverage of complications from refractive surgery.
Below, I have placed a transcript of the telephone message that Darlynne
Reyes left on my answering machine. (Reference 14)
Somehow, I have a feeling that it wasn't a car dealer that objected to
KSWB-TV's previous news coverage of complications from laser eye
surgery. In my opinion, the advertisers that objected were "doctors"
that are trying to sell laser eye surgery. In order to sell laser eye
surgery, those advertisers need for potential customers to believe that
laser eye surgery is "safe", in the same sense that getting a tooth
filled is safe.
Well, I can tell you for sure. Laser eye surgery is NOT safe. If you
don't believe me, please read this account, my plea for help for a
patient of one of the most experienced refractive surgeons in Southern
California, Thomas Tooma in Newport Beach.
http://www.lasiksos.com/worst-case.htm
Early in the year 2001, it was discovered that the patient I have
referred to as "Julie" has large quantities of metal dust embedded in
her corneas. She was not born with metal dust in her corneas. The only
time that I can think of when metal dust could have been deposited in
her lamellar interface -- below the flap -- is at the time the flap was
cut -- at the time of her laser eye surgery. Which was performed by
TLC-affiliated Newport Beach laser eye surgeon Doctor Thomas Tooma early
in the year 1999. One of the most experienced, highly regarded laser eye
surgeons in Southern California.
This patient has lived with constant, excruciating eye pain since the
day of her laser eye surgery. This patient spends most of her time with
her eyes closed. This patient can also see a Snellen chart, without
contact lenses. What good is seeing a Snellen chart if your eyes hurt so
much you have to keep them closed all the time ?
Again and again, I am told by Tooma's defenders and salespeople that he
is "one of the best". If "one of the best" can leave a patient crippled
with constant eye pain -- then I suggest it's time to call a "Time Out."
Is there a Doctor in the House ?
Would you like to participate in the Experiment ? (Reference 3)
<== Did Doctor Thomas Tooma Alter the Results of a Clinical Trial ?? ==>
Unfortunately, the plot thickens. The patient with the metal dust
embedded in their corneas, and the constant eye-pain, was told that
their LASIK surgery was part of a clinical trial. That clinical trial
was conducted in conjunction with Loma Linda University. When we called
LLU to request a copy of the record of that patient's participation in
that clinical trial, we were told that there was NO RECORD of that
patient's participation in that clinical trial.
In my opinion, the logical explanation for this is that Doctor Tooma
removed that patient's record from the records of that clinical trial.
Subsequently, given that that patient's surgery was allegedly performed
using a Technolas 116 and that Technolas is owned by Bausch & Lomb, I
perused the Bausch & Lomb literature. Lo and behold, there's Doctor
Tooma himself in a recent Bausch & Lomb annual report.
Now, I'm a design engineer -- you know, one of those people who enjoyed
calculus classes in high school. I know that equipment manufacturers
loan expensive equipment to potential customers -- in this case, laser
eye surgeons.
I'm also a human being. And common sense tells me that you don't get
your picture in an annual report by being loaned an expensive ophthalmic
laser workstation, and using it to cripple a patient. You can, however,
get your picture in an annual report by borrowing the surgical
workstation, and reporting back that "it works great" -- even when it
most clearly doesn't.
<== The "Standard of Care" in Refractive Surgery ==>
As you may have deduced if you have read this far, it is my opinion and
observation, based on about 5 years of observing, that the "standard of
care" in refractive surgery is far below the standard of care in most
other fields of medicine. In other words, the assumption that we make
about doctors, that they would not knowingly place our health at risk,
does not, in my opinion, apply in the field of refractive surgery.
In short, in my opinion, based on 5 years of observation, many of those
who are considered to be the "best in the business" of refractive
surgery can not be trusted with the health of anyone's eyes.
<== Is All-laser Eye Surgery "Safer" ?? ==>
I am in possession of an email from a Boston-area patient who is
experiencing continued eye-pain 1 1/2 months after their initial
surgery, which was performed using the Intralase laser to cut the flap,
and an ophthalmic laser to perform the ablation.
To quote brief excerpts from that patient's recent emails, they are
experiencing a "foreign body sensation" in the eye, eye "pain", and a
feeling of "pressure" in the eye" -- the exact symptoms of an
Ultraviolet Radiation Burn. After all-laser eye surgery.
My feeling is that the laser eye surgery industry needs to mobilize
itself to help this patient, and all other injured laser eye surgery
patients.
Additionally, the experience of one of Thomas Tooma's patients is
http://users.tns.net/~equity/LASIK_Casualties_OC/NavTooma.htm
That patient is now blind in one eye. They experienced a broken major
blood vessel in the eye -- shortly after their own LASIK surgery. The
broken blood vessel is believed to have occurred because of the tissue
trauma induced by the suction ring (the device used to immobilize the
eye) and the speculum (the device used to move the eyelid out of the
way.) During "all-laser eye surgery", both the suction ring and the
speculum are used. In other words, what happened to Tooma's patient, the
human being associated with Orange County case #01CC06832, can happen to
any all-laser eye surgery patient.
So, too, are all laser eye surgery patients vulnerable to the damaging
effects of Ultraviolet Radiation, which is known to be both carcinogenic
(causing cancer) and cataractogenic (causing cataracts) (References 7,
9, 10, 11, 12)
<== Closing Statements ==>
Is it ethical to give prospective laser eye surgery patients ALL the
information about refractive surgery casualties ? I believe so -- it
is ethical to provide prospective patients with this information.
In short, it is my request that the refractive surgery industry adopt
the following goals as its own.
1) Make the treatment of injured patients a top priority. The patients
with the most eye pain go to the front of the line.
2) Given the evident lack of mature medical solutions for patients
injured by laser eye surgery, make the development of those solutions a
top priority -- more important than selling new surgeries and recklessly
endangering the eye health of new patients.
3) Fully disclose to all prospective patients the entire depth and
breadth of all known adverse outcomes from laser eye surgery. In other
words, count the casualties, and tell prospective patients about those
casualties. Present the information not as something that COULD happen,
but as something that HAS happened, after surgery by almost all of the
"top" refractive surgeons.
Sincerely,
~ Roger ~
Roger E. Bratt
http://www.lasikSOS.com/
Copyright 2003 Roger E. Bratt -- All Rights Reserved.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
Post by LASIK SOS
This is Not an Advertisement for any of the following persons or
Doctor Michael Gordon
Doctor Perry Binder
Doctor Thomas Tooma
Doctor Robert Maloney
Doctor Glenn Kawesch
Bausch and Lomb
VISX
Summit Technology
Nidek
TLC Laser Eye Centers
Loma Linda University
KSWB-TV
Intralase
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
Post by LASIK SOS
REFERENCES.
( Reference 1 ) Counting the Casualties, in medical articles, online
forums, personal websites, Medical Foundations, and recently published
Patients with Injured Eyes, Asking for Help.
The online forum at the Surgical Eyes Foundation
http://surgicaleyes.atinfopop.com/4/OpenTopic
The "LASIK Disaster" website. This patient experienced "corneal melt" -
an inflammation that was not diagnosed in the early stages. After about
8 surgeries to deal with the messy situation, her cornea is finally
stabilized, though an extra 100 microns thinner.
http://www.lasikdisaster.com/
LASIK Info Center
http://www.lasikinfocenter.net/
The LASIK SOS Website
http://www.lasikSOS.com
The online forum, about LASIK complications, operated by Dr. Gerald Horn
at the Chicago Laser Center
http://www.lasikprk.com/VisionPlaceIII/bb/bbNOW.htm
USENET newsgroups "sci.med.vision" and "alt.lasik-eyes"
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=sci.med.vision&ie=ISO-8859-1&hl=en
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=ISO-8859-1&q=alt.lasik-eyes&btnG=Google+Search&meta=
Post by LASIK SOS
Wendy Lyons Sunshine's article about LASIK casualties in Northern
California, "A Pain in the Eye That's Forever"
http://www.eastbayexpress.com/issues/2003-04-23/feature.html/1/index.html
Wendy Lyons Sunshine's article about LASIK casualties in the Dallas
Texas area, "Shattered Sight, Shattered Lives"
http://www.fwweekly.com/issues/2003-02-20/feature.html/page1.html
( Reference 2 ) Email received from Doctor Robert Maloney Regarding
Debris Embedded in the Cornea During LASIK.
NOTES ...
1. The Doctor's comments below were made in the context of a
conversation about my own post-op complications after LASIK surgery.
2. I have masked Doctor Maloney's contact information using ***
characters. I have also removed the mailing address and fax and phone
number.
3. Normally, I keep emails confidential. However, this email is of
particular interest. Doctor Maloney makes a statement which I believe
all laser eye surgery patients ought to hear BEFORE they have surgery --
that corneal debris is a frequent side effect of LASIK surgery.
4. Additionally, it is interesting to note, that because some patients
apparently do have corneal debris without eye pain, in the case of
patients that do develop eye pain after LASIK, this same debris is for
some reason considered to not be a problem -- to not be a source of
inflammation.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
Post by LASIK SOS
Subject: RE: LASIK Date: Thu, 20 Feb 2003 06:28:47 -0800
Would you like me to help you find someone in the area to do confocal
microscopy on your cornea? To be honest I doubt very much that embedded
debris is the cause of your troubles. Recent clinical studies show that
everyone has microscopic debris, and as you well know, most people do
not
have symptoms of your severity.
I appreciate the issue of delicacy in discussing my patients, but would
you
be comfortable talking in general terms rather than discussing specific
patients?
Robert K. Maloney, M.D.
Maloney Vision Institute"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
Post by LASIK SOS
( Reference 3 ) In this context, "Would you like to participate in the
Experiment ?" is a rhetorical construct. The most heart-felt advice I
could give you is -- laser eye surgery is one very poorly-administered
experiment that I suggest you NOT participate in.
( Reference 4 ) Bausch & Lomb FDA Filing for the Technolas 217
Ophthalmic Laser
Laser Wavelength 193 nm
Laser Pulse Duration 18 nanoseconds
Laser Head Repetition Rate 50 Hz
Effective Corneal Repetition Rate 12.5 Hz
Fluence (at the eye) 120 mJ/cm2
Range of Ablation Diameter 2.0 to 2.05 mm
http://www.accessdata2.fda.gov/Google/fda_search.pl?client=
fdagov&site=fdagov&restrict=&searchselector=&q=Technolas+217
Search yielded a document named "P990027S002b.doc" when performed June
7, 2003.
Ref.
http://www.fda.gov/search.html
These numbers give 2 options to derive peak power from average power -
does the laser fire 12.5 pulses at the patient's eye every second, or 50
pulses ? I emailed Bausch & Lomb asking for technical input; this matter
has not yet been clarified. Therefore I shall perform the calculations
for both cases.
( Reference 5 ) Translating from milli-watts per square centimeter to
milli-watts per square inch
Power for lasers is frequently expressed using an energy term (joules),
instead of a power term (watts).
120 mJ/cm^2 ==> 120 mW/cm^2
Radiation Source: ophthlamic laser which fires 12.5 pulses 18
nano-seconds long per second with a stated fluence of 120 mJ/cm^2
CW (continuous wave) or pulsed ? : Pulsed
Duty Cycle: .000000225, 12.5 pulses per second ... each pulse is 18
nanoseconds long.
"Fluence", Power Density of laser beam: 120 milli-watts per square
centimeter - 774 milli-watts per square inch - about 3/4 of a watt per
square inch.
Power Density: .774 watts per square inch, about 3/4 of a watt per
square inch.
Peak Watts per Square Inch, if the 120 milli-Joules specification is a
physical average: 3,440,000
Beam Width: 2 millimeters, about 1/ 12 of an inch
Radiation Source: ophthlamic laser which fires 50 pulses 18 nano-seconds
long per second with a stated fluence of 120 mJ/cm^2
CW (continuous wave) or pulsed ? : Pulsed
Duty Cycle: .00000090, 50 pulses per second ... each pulse is 18
nanoseconds long.
Power Density: .774 watts per square inch, about 3/4 of a watt per
square inch.
Peak Watts per Square inch, if the 120 milli-Joules specification is a
physical average: 860,000
Beam Width: 2 millimeters, about 1/ 12 of an inch
( Reference 6 ) Radiation Source: The Sun
CW (continuous wave) or pulsed ? : CW
Duty Cycle: 100%
Average Watts per square meter, in outer space: 1367
http://stratus.ssec.wisc.edu/streamer_web/userman/solar.html
Amount of radiation "absorbed at the surface": 51%
http://www.geog.ouc.bc.ca/physgeog/contents/7f.html
Average Watts per square meter, on the average beach: 697
Average Watts per square foot, on the average beach: 65
Average Watts per square foot, on the beach, at the equator: up to 90
TBD
Average Watts per square foot, term used in comparison with excimer
laser: 80
(Note: one of the goals of the analysis is to express the ratio as
conservatively as possible, that is, to not over-state the ratio when
comparing the ophthalmic excimer laser to the sun.)
Average Watts per square inch, term used in comparison with excimer
laser: .56 watts per square inch
Amount of solar radiation "absorbed at the surface" if .56 watts is
absorbed at the surface: 63.5%
Frequency Spectrum of the Sun: Broadband - Infrared, Visible,
Ultraviolet
( Reference 7 ) VISX FDA Filing for the Star S2 Ophthalmic Laser
http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/pdf/p930016s014b.doc
V. DEVICE DESCRIPTION
A. Laser System
"The device used in the clinical study was the VISX STAR S2 Excimer
Laser System for which a full description can be found in the SSED for
supplement 7. The excimer is an argon-fluoride laser that generates
pulses at 193 nm wavelength. The output of the excimer laser also has
the following characteristics: fluence of 160 mJ/cm2; 20 nanoseconds
pulse duration; and, pulse repetition rate of up to 10 Hz."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
Post by LASIK SOS
Power for lasers is frequently expressed using an energy term (joules),
instead of a power term (watts).
160 mJ/cm2 ==> 160 mW/cm2
160 mW/cm2
= 1032 milli-watts per square inch
Average Watts per square inch for the sun, term used in comparison with
.56 watts per square inch
= 560 milli-watts per square inch
( Reference 8 )
The area of a surface varies with the square of the radius. To increase
the area by a factor of 1000, the radius is increased 31.6 times.
( Reference 9 )
Canadian Center for Occupational Health Safety (CCOHS)
"Occupational Safety Guidelines regarding Exposure to Ultraviolet-C Band
Radiation during Arc Welding."
"Certain types of UV radiation can produce an injury to the surface and
mucous membrane (conjunctiva) of the eye called "arc eye," "welders'
eye" or "arc flash." These names are common names for "conjunctivitis" -
an inflammation of the mucous membrane of the front of the eye. The
symptoms include
· pain - ranging from a mild feeling of pressure in the eyes to intense
pain in severe instances,
· tearing and reddening of the eye and membranes around the eye,
· sensation of "sand in the eye" or abnormal sensitivity to light, and
· inability to look at light sources (photophobia)."
( Reference 10 )
Thomas Jefferson National Accelerator Facility, in Virginia --
http://www.jlab.org/ehs/manual/EHSbook-465.html
"Cornea
An important function of the cornea is to focus light. Damage to the
cornea is caused by exposure to ultraviolet and far infrared radiation.
The cornea is most susceptible to damage from ultraviolet light. Over
exposure to ultraviolet burn light can cause photokeratitus (also known
as Welder's flash, arc eye, snow blindness). Signs of photokeratitus
include redness, tearing and discharge from the mucous membrane that
lines the inner surface of the eyelid. Symptoms include an acutely
painful sensation of gritty material in the eye."
( Reference 11 )
Department of Environmental Health & Safety, at UC-Davis --
http://ehs.ucdavis.edu/sftynet/sn-106.html
"The cornea of the eye is composed of a thin layer of specialized
epithelia cells. These cells can also absorb UV radiation, resulting in
tiny lesions on the cornea that may not be felt for several hours after
exposure. The sensation is much like having sand in your eye. Known as
photokeratitis, welders flash or snow blindness, the effects can last up
to 48 hours but subsides as the cells of the cornea rebuild. Although
most UV radiation that enters the eye is absorbed in the cornea,
molecular changes can occur in the lens as photons bombard proteins and
change their configuration, resulting in cataract formation."
( Reference 12 )
The Canadian Ophthalmological Society
http://www.eyesite.ca/english/program-and-services/policy-statements-guidelines/UV-radiation-eye.htm
Post by LASIK SOS
"UV phototoxicity has been implicated in causing or accelerating the
progression of several diseases of the eye or its supporting structures,
including the eyelids. The following is a partial list of some of the
more common diseases involved.
Basal cell and squamous cell carcinoma, melanoma: skin cancer of the
eyelids.
Pingueculae, pterygia: conjunctival growths between the eyelids that may
encroach on the visual axis and obstruct or distort vision.
UV photokeratitis, snow blindness, arc welder's burn: acute superficial
"burn" of the cornea from high-intensity short-term exposure to UV
radiation.
Spheroidal degeneration, Labrador keratopathy: loss of corneal clarity
from long-term exposure to UV radiation.
Cataracts: opacification of the crystalline lens of the eye.
Eclipse or solar retinopathy: damage to the retina from acute exposure
during an eclipse or while gazing directly at the sun.
Macular degeneration: central retinal damage in the part of the retina
responsible for the best sight.
Acceleration of the progression of the pigmentary retinopathies
(retinitis pigmentosa), iritis (intraocular inflammation) or cystoid
macular edema (central fluid accumulation in the retina)."
( Reference 14 )
The initial email from KSWB reporter Darlynne Reyes.
NOTES ...
1. 99.99% of the time, I treat incoming email as sacrosanct and
confidential. However, when the email is able to shed light on a public
health epidemic which the laser eye surgery would not like publicized, I
make exceptions to that rule.
2. I have masked Ms. Reyes' contact information using "*" characters. I
have also removed the phone number.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
Post by LASIK SOS
Subject: Lasik surgery
Date: Wed, 14 May 2003 22:05:02 -0500
Dear Roger,
My name is Darlynne Reyes and I am a reporter at KSWB-TV. I am currently
doing research for a possible story on LASIK eye surgery and I came
across
your website. I would like to talk to you more about this topic. Would
you please give me a call? I'm hoping you can help me out or point me
in the right direction.
My work phone number is: <excised>. Thanks for your time!!
Darlynne Reyes
KSWB-TV
Reporter"
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------
Post by LASIK SOS
Phone message from Darlynne Reyes, message left on work phone
approximately May 22, 2003
"Hey Roger
it's Darlynne Reyes calling from KSWB
Thanks for ... uhh ... returning my call
I appreciate that
and ... uh ... actually it's kind of funny that you would leave that
message for me
as far as ... uh ... you being curious what our advertisers would say
because ... uh ... (laughter)
when you had left me that message I talked to my news director
and ... uhh ... that's actually ... uhhh ... exactly what she talked to
me about
and apparently we have done this story before I came on board here
and ... uhh ... there was actually some ... uh ... big problems with the
piece (laughter)
so unfortunately I guess I will not be doing this piece ... uhhh ... for
next month
even though i had hoped to and (in-audible)
Doesn't seem like it's in the cards ... oh well ...
thank you so much Roger
and ... uhh ... I appreciate it and ... uhh ...
maybe we'll work together on some other type o' story
in the meantime thanks for returning my call
OK talk to you later bye bye."
( Reference 15 ) Copyright Statement & Home Page for the analysis
contained in this email.
Copyright 2003 Roger E. Bratt -- All Rights Reserved.
This communication has been be re-published at the home page for LASIK
SOS.com, at this URL --
http://www.lasikSOS.com
Denny Salatino
2003-08-18 17:30:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Ness
Now let's talk about the multitudes of people that think
LASIK is a MIRACLE and what a difference it made in their lives.
Me included. I would have it done again, in a heartbeat...
****
Did yours have to do with the lens in the eye?
I have had a laser procedure for Glaucoma, SLT.
(Selective Laser Trabeculplasty) to relieve intraocular pressure in the
eye. had it done in both eyes twice but still have to use Xalatan drops
daily.
Denny.
Richard Ness
2003-08-18 19:38:07 UTC
Permalink
LASIK
It's also called 'flap and zap' where they slice a flap from your cornea
with a precision cutting device,
flip it out of the way and zap the exposed area and then let the flap go
back where it was.

The lens is a structure inside the eye, clouded by cataracts, requiring
invasive surgery / removal
and then replacement with an artificial lens. MUCH different...

LASIK is not risk free, what is in life? It's a percentage thing. Millions
are happy with the results and
a majority feel that it is a modern miracle. A VERY small percentage have
problems and those are the
ones that get the press.
Post by Denny Salatino
Post by Richard Ness
Now let's talk about the multitudes of people that think
LASIK is a MIRACLE and what a difference it made in their lives.
Me included. I would have it done again, in a heartbeat...
****
Did yours have to do with the lens in the eye?
I have had a laser procedure for Glaucoma, SLT.
(Selective Laser Trabeculplasty) to relieve intraocular pressure in the
eye. had it done in both eyes twice but still have to use Xalatan drops
daily.
Denny.
Denny Salatino
2003-08-19 17:02:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Ness
LASIK
It's also called 'flap and zap' where they slice a flap from your cornea
with a precision cutting device,
flip it out of the way and zap the exposed area and then let the flap go
back where it was.
****
Yeah, much different than even what I had done,mine was more or less
like putting pinholes by laser to allow more fluid drainage.
he hit it about 50 times in each eye with the laser light.
took only about ten minutes per eye and went right home.
Denny.
Dr. Feelgood
2003-08-19 20:14:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denny Salatino
Post by Richard Ness
LASIK
It's also called 'flap and zap' where they slice a flap from your cornea
with a precision cutting device,
flip it out of the way and zap the exposed area and then let the flap go
back where it was.
****
Yeah, much different than even what I had done,mine was more or less
like putting pinholes by laser to allow more fluid drainage.
he hit it about 50 times in each eye with the laser light.
took only about ten minutes per eye and went right home.
Denny.
Thanks for sharing Denny. You are one of the many modern day medical
miracles. You must have been cut more than crank on a New York street.
Wes
You say that like someone with first hand experiance.
Wesley White
2003-08-19 20:42:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by LASIK SOS
Post by Denny Salatino
Post by Richard Ness
LASIK
It's also called 'flap and zap' where they slice a flap from your
cornea
Post by Denny Salatino
Post by Richard Ness
with a precision cutting device,
flip it out of the way and zap the exposed area and then let the
flap
Post by LASIK SOS
go
Post by Denny Salatino
Post by Richard Ness
back where it was.
****
Yeah, much different than even what I had done,mine was more or less
like putting pinholes by laser to allow more fluid drainage.
he hit it about 50 times in each eye with the laser light.
took only about ten minutes per eye and went right home.
Denny.
Thanks for sharing Denny. You are one of the many modern day medical
miracles. You must have been cut more than crank on a New York street.
Wes
You say that like someone with first hand experiance.
Experience with what? Medicine or New York? The answer is yes to both. What
is your point or was that a weak attempt at starting a flame?



Wes
Alex Clayton
2003-08-20 00:13:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wesley White
Post by Wesley White
Experience with what? Medicine or New York? The answer is yes to both. What
is your point or was that a weak attempt at starting a flame?
Wes
Don't know if your new here. Just in case, your dealing with one of the "wit
brothers". Trying to get either of them to "reason" or listen to reason is
about as productive as trying to blow out a light bulb.
--
"Things get better with age, I'm approaching magnificent"!
Denny Salatino
2003-08-20 15:10:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Clayton
Don't know if your new here. Just in case, your dealing with one of the "wit
brothers".
****
Not brothers.
***
Trying to get either of them to "reason" or listen to reason is
Post by Alex Clayton
about as productive as trying to
blow out a light bulb.
***
I can do that!
DS.
Wesley White
2003-08-21 05:32:24 UTC
Permalink
Alex,

It looks as if you are right on the money! In the middle of what I
thought was an interesting conversation with Denny this Dr Feelgood jumps in
and starts bad assing me saying I was baiting Denny. Damn. Is this Dr F a
prepubescent teen with a crush on Denny? I was actually right more than I
imagined. Turns out Denny has had many times under the knife. His Docs have
been slicing and dicing on him more than Ron Popeel does on those late night
commercials. I bet his brother will be all over me for that remark.



Thanks for the heads up. I see clearly where this is going with them and you
are correct.





Wes
Post by Alex Clayton
Post by Wesley White
Post by Wesley White
Experience with what? Medicine or New York? The answer is yes to both.
What
Post by Wesley White
is your point or was that a weak attempt at starting a flame?
Wes
Don't know if your new here. Just in case, your dealing with one of the "wit
brothers". Trying to get either of them to "reason" or listen to reason is
about as productive as trying to blow out a light bulb.
--
"Things get better with age, I'm approaching magnificent"!
Denny Salatino
2003-08-21 17:56:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Alex Clayton
Post by Wesley White
Post by Wesley White
Experience with what? Medicine or New York? The answer is yes to both.
What
Post by Wesley White
is your point or was that a weak attempt at starting a flame?
Wes
Don't know if your new here. Just in case, your dealing with one of the "wit
brothers". Trying to get either of them to "reason" or listen to reason is
about as productive as trying to blow out a light bulb.
*****
And if you read this one Wes, it doesen't help the situation either
does it? another flame for no reason from Alex.
Denny.
Denny Salatino
2003-08-20 20:16:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wesley White
Experience with what? Medicine or New York? The answer is yes to both. What
is your point or was that a weak attempt at starting a flame?
Wes
****
Niether, we just want to know if crank cuts different on a NewYork
street than it does in a Tacoma sidewalk or alley?
DS.
Wesley White
2003-08-21 05:21:22 UTC
Permalink
Dr Feelgood hiding behind another alias



All I said "Thanks for sharing Denny. You are one of the many modern day
medical
miracles. You must have been cut more than crank on a New York street" After
he commented on having 100 cuts to his eyes. My comment was meant in jest.
Denny obviously agreed when replied with a brief history of his many
surgeries. You jump in and ruin a perfectly good conversation. How did you
achieve this level of control over Denny?



Your name calling, tissyfits, cadre and such made up groups of yours are
childish and nothing but a diversion from a factual discussion. You have no
grounds to stand on and you must rely on these fantasy groups of your. It
makes it impossible for anyone to hold a rational discussion with you.

Even your tagline is flawed wavering between fact and nonsense. Look up the
definition of terrorist before you use it again. You might learn something
in the process.







Wes
Post by Denny Salatino
Post by Wesley White
Experience with what? Medicine or New York? The answer is yes to
both.
What
Post by Denny Salatino
Post by Wesley White
is your point or was that a weak attempt at starting a flame?
Wes
****
Niether, we just want to know if crank cuts different on a NewYork
street than it does in a Tacoma sidewalk or alley?
Niether? Why would you want to know Denny? Just trying to get a flame
going
again, aren't you? You and your brother. How weak and pathetic. You
answer
cordially and then hours later when you see your brother try and flame
me
you join in. Why are you trying to start trouble with me Denny?
Wes
R.pay / W.W. / or whatever other alias you choose to use;
You have a heck of a lot of nerve trying to blame or accuse anyone of
attempting to flame after you posted your sarcastic reply to Denny. you
brought drugs into the discussion in a typical drug user manner. Then you
have the nerve to claim someone else was doing what you were doing
yourself
all along. you truly belong in the Cadre / TISSYFITS group of misfits. You
morons try to bait Denny constantly and then cry foul when you get caught.
I
was simply commenting "ON TOPIC" to what you posted.
Talking about week and pathetic, how are the rest of your TISSYFITS
buddies
doing?
Dr Feelgood
"Terrorist are terrorist. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves
up in suicide bomb attacks, Flying hijacked airplanes into buildings,
mailing deadly diseases in envelops or posting personal attacks and lies
in
internet newsgroups. Terrorist are terrorist."
Dr Feelgood (2001,2002,2003)
Dr. Feelgood
2003-08-21 12:13:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wesley White
Dr Feelgood hiding behind another alias
All I said "Thanks for sharing Denny. You are one of the many modern day
medical
miracles. You must have been cut more than crank on a New York street" After
he commented on having 100 cuts to his eyes. My comment was meant in jest.
So you can post sarcastic remarks and relate serious surgeries to drugs but
If I point out that fact in jest it's a flame and personal attack?

You have a lot to learn about life and unfortunately chose to learn from
Idiots like Glenn, Batman and R.N. You post under multiple names using
obvious baiting tactics and get all worked up when someone points out your
stupidity and the fact you seem to know more than the average person about
the drug industry. This leads me to believe you are or have been involved in
the illegal drug trade. Normal people don't start making up phony excuses
when their knowledge is pointed out. Druggies do. Only someone involved ti
the illegal drug industry would consider my comments as a flame.
Post by Wesley White
Denny obviously agreed when replied with a brief history of his many
surgeries. You jump in and ruin a perfectly good conversation. How did you
achieve this level of control over Denny?
Perfectly good conversation? So you consider making fun of someone who has
had multiple medical problems as good conversation? That says a lot about
you and at least gives a reason you may have been hooked on illegal drugs
and involved in the illegal drug trade. You are the one who brought the
illegal drug trade into this discussion.
Post by Wesley White
Your name calling, tissyfits, cadre and such made up groups of yours are
childish and nothing but a diversion from a factual discussion. You have no
grounds to stand on and you must rely on these fantasy groups of your. It
makes it impossible for anyone to hold a rational discussion with you.
Only because you are to stupid to hold what you consider a rational
discussion with anyone not strung out on drugs. Normal people don't have any
problem discussing things like your stupidity and terrorist tactics /
actions, war, population. politics, etc. with me and most other honest
realistic people who aren't strung out on drugs most of the time. As for
grounds I have proved repeatedly just how stupid you terrorist are and
exactly why I consider you all terrorist. If you can prove otherwise take me
to court. It was your own choice to join the group who proudly proclaim
themselves the "Tacoma Cadre" and even maintain a web site to promote their
hatred and personal attacks.
Post by Wesley White
Even your tagline is flawed wavering between fact and nonsense. Look up the
definition of terrorist before you use it again. You might learn something
in the process.
You're entitled to your drug induced opinion but that don't make you right.
You morons seem to like pointing out my tag-line is flawed but can't ever
seem to prove it. The idiots blowing themselves up to kill and maim Jews in
Israel don't consider themselves terrorist either and I doubt your buddies
who flew the planes into the WTC and Pentagon considered themselves
terrorist either. The fact I refuse to be in terror because of your personal
attacks does not mean you idiots aren't trying. At least two of your fellow
Cadre members have threatened me with physical violence, R.N. threatened to
destroy my computer and to shoot me. Glenn Hansen has been convicted of
physically stalking Denny and I have had property damaged and stolen after
Cadre threats. Pardon me if you feel your piddly attacks don't meet the high
terrorist standards of the rest of your little group. You will have to ask
them how to move up to their lowly standards.
FYI: A terrorist is simply someone who terrorizes or attempts to terrorize
someone else or some other group of people. Just like you and your buddies
do. What is your drug induces definition?


Dr Feelgood

"Terrorist are terrorist. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves
up in suicide bomb attacks, Flying hijacked airplanes into buildings,
mailing deadly diseases in envelops or posting personal attacks and lies in
internet newsgroups. Terrorist are terrorist."
Dr Feelgood (2001,2002,2003)
Richard Ness
2003-08-22 16:20:34 UTC
Permalink
Mike,

I keep telling you to leave me out of your ongoing fight(s)
Yet, you refer to me twice in your post.
The second time containing totally false information.
Typical.....
Post by Dr. Feelgood
Idiots like Glenn, Batman and R.N.
At least two of your fellow Cadre members have threatened me with
physical violence,
Post by Dr. Feelgood
R.N. threatened to destroy my computer and to shoot me.
I asked if you were using some kind of PC security, nothing more.
NO direct threat was ever made. Just you twisting the truth, again.

You post about the cops, security cameras and what violent action you'd take
if someone came to your door.
I posted that I would protect me and mine on my own property. Only YOU would
then interpret that as
a direct threat to you. I forgot that the world, or possibly the entire
universe revolves ONLY around Mike Gibson...
Dr. Feelgood
2003-08-22 17:56:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Ness
Mike,
I keep telling you to leave me out of your ongoing fight(s)
Yet, you refer to me twice in your post.
The second time containing totally false information.
Typical.....
You idiots just can't give it a rest can you? Every time I respond to anyone
in here one of you attacks then others chime in. When will you idiots learn
I will not be intimidated by thugs like you?

No; you claiming you never said you could and would hack into my computer
and destroy whatever you wanted to is the lie. You claiming you would shoot
me with a list of your guns if you saw me anywhere near your property is a
fact. Twist and lie all you like scumbag. Everyone who can read and
comprehend in here knows what a liar you and your buddies are. Why should I
leave you out when YOU and only YOU put yourself here with your threats and
lies. If you want out admit in here how you lie and threaten others and tell
everyone why you feel the need to do so.

Dr Feelgood


"Terrorist are terrorist. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves
up in suicide bomb attacks, Flying hijacked airplanes into buildings,
mailing deadly diseases in envelops or posting personal attacks and lies in
internet newsgroups. Terrorist are terrorist."
Dr Feelgood (2001,2002,2003)
Richard Ness
2003-08-22 18:40:06 UTC
Permalink
Assholes are assholes. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves,
flying off the handle, mailing psychotic ravings or posting personal attacks
and
lies in Internet newsgroups. Assholes are assholes.

MG is the KING of the assholes.

Everyone else (2001, 2002, 2003)
Post by Wesley White
Dr Feelgood hiding behind another alias
Even your tagline is flawed wavering between fact and nonsense. Look up the
definition of terrorist before you use it again. You might learn something
in the process.
Wes
"Terrorist are terrorist. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves
up in suicide bomb attacks, Flying hijacked airplanes into buildings,
mailing deadly diseases in envelops or posting personal attacks and lies
in
internet newsgroups. Terrorist are terrorist."
Dr Feelgood (2001,2002,2003)
Richard Ness
2003-08-22 19:41:45 UTC
Permalink
Now here's a real HOOT!!

To quote Bugs Bunny.....

"What a maroon"

The "truth" is a concept you have yet to fully grasp.....
Or just something you simply ignore, twist, distort and pervert.
On a VERY regular basis... (pretty much anytime you post)

You wouldn't know (or acknowledge) the truth if it bit you square
on the tip of your nose.
Why is it you people hate the truth so much?
Richard Ness
2003-08-22 20:56:02 UTC
Permalink
Mike,

I don't have the time or inclination to 'dance' with you this time.
There has been so much feces flung around here for too long.
Yes, I have flung dung myself....

Whatever your reply to the post is: sorry, nope....

GHWB (George I but Dana Carvey was funnier) said:
"Ain't gonna do it"

Enjoy your weekend. Let's not waste it here. Thanks.

Flame on, I have Halon installed. Kills ANY fire....
Post by Richard Ness
Now here's a real HOOT!!
To quote Bugs Bunny.....
"What a maroon"
The "truth" is a concept you have yet to fully grasp.....
Or just something you simply ignore, twist, distort and pervert.
On a VERY regular basis... (pretty much anytime you post)
You wouldn't know (or acknowledge) the truth if it bit you square
on the tip of your nose.
Why is it you people hate the truth so much?
Dr. Feelgood
2003-08-22 23:48:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by Richard Ness
Now here's a real HOOT!!
To quote Bugs Bunny.....
"What a maroon"
The "truth" is a concept you have yet to fully grasp.....
Or just something you simply ignore, twist, distort and pervert.
On a VERY regular basis... (pretty much anytime you post)
You wouldn't know (or acknowledge) the truth if it bit you square
on the tip of your nose.
Why is it you people hate the truth so much?
Nice snip and twist job. You seem to be doing well at the Cadre school of
terrorism. I see you now wish to run like the cowardly fool you and all of
the other Cadre members are.


Dr Feelgood


"Terrorist are terrorist. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves
up in suicide bomb attacks, Flying hijacked airplanes into buildings,
mailing deadly diseases in envelops or posting personal attacks and lies in
internet newsgroups. Terrorist are terrorist."
Dr Feelgood (2001,2002,2003)
Denny Salatino
2003-08-21 18:10:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denny Salatino
Niether, we just want to know if crank cuts different on a NewYork
street than it does in a Tacoma sidewalk or alley?
Niether? Why would you want to know Denny? Just trying to get a flame going
again, aren't you? You and your brother. How weak and pathetic. You answer
cordially and then hours later when you see your brother try and flame me
you join in. Why are you trying to start trouble with me Denny?
Wes
******
Are you just trying to get a flame going by saying twice in your
reply that we are brothers? Again, we are not related at all.
watch what you say unless you want it to be taken as starting a flame
yourself.
Denny.
Denny Salatino
2003-08-21 18:30:07 UTC
Permalink
Niether? Why would you want to know Denny? Just trying to get a flame going
again, aren't you? You and your brother. How weak and pathetic. You answer
cordially and then hours later when you see your brother try and flame me
you join in. Why are you trying to start trouble with me Denny?
Wes
****
No, I am not trying to start trouble with you as you seem to think.
Wes, the flame starts with Alex's comment about the wit brothers,
then you (maybe unwittingly)
pick up on it, and twice you use the term "brother" as though you
yourself intend to carry on the flame. that's how easy it starts here.
re-read it and see if you pick up on it.
Denny.
Dr. Feelgood
2003-08-22 04:13:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by LASIK SOS
Post by Denny Salatino
Niether? Why would you want to know Denny? Just trying to get a flame
going
Post by Denny Salatino
again, aren't you? You and your brother. How weak and pathetic. You
answer
Post by Denny Salatino
cordially and then hours later when you see your brother try and flame
me
Post by Denny Salatino
you join in. Why are you trying to start trouble with me Denny?
Wes
****
No, I am not trying to start trouble with you as you seem to think.
Wes, the flame starts with Alex's comment about the wit brothers,
then you (maybe unwittingly)
pick up on it, and twice you use the term "brother" as though you
yourself intend to carry on the flame. that's how easy it starts here.
re-read it and see if you pick up on it.
You answer cordially and then hours later when you see your friend,
associate, partner, boss or you pick it, try and flame me
you join in. Why are you trying to start trouble with me Denny? Don't
answer
Post by LASIK SOS
my question with a question instead answer my question about you before
you
Post by LASIK SOS
start in with your ongoing problems with other people.
Wes
I see you have been taking lessons from your idiot friends r.pay. You used
to post from your comcast account and knowing you are in danger of losing
that account if you get caught doing your terrorist / flame postings you
moved to supernews to post your sarcastic drug induced postings.

FYI: Denny post via google and I seriously doubt he saw my posting before
pointiing out your behavior.

When is the next "TISSYFITS" Cadre meeting? You still have a lot to learn
BOY!

Dr. Feelgood

"Terrorist are terrorist. It doesn't matter if they are blowing themselves
up in suicide bomb attacks, Flying hijacked airplanes into buildings,
mailing deadly diseases in envelops or posting personal attacks and lies in
internet newsgroups. Terrorist are terrorist."
Dr Feelgood (2001,2002,2003)
Richard Ness
2003-08-22 16:10:16 UTC
Permalink
BZZZZZT, wrong Mikey....

You supposedly whined to Comcast about me.
They laughed (big-time) at you and I'm still here.

You cried to Harbornet about someone else...
They laughed heartily at you too.
You used to post from your comcast account and knowing you are in danger
of losing
that account if you get caught doing your terrorist / flame postings you
moved to supernews to post your sarcastic drug induced postings.
Denny Salatino
2003-08-22 13:23:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by LASIK SOS
You answer cordially and then hours later when you see your friend,
associate, partner, boss or you pick it, try and flame me
you join in. Why are you trying to start trouble with me Denny? Don't answer
my question with a question instead answer my question about you before you
start in with your ongoing problems with other people.
Wes
*****
My comment was directed to Mike. now, what question about me haven't I
answered? you asked, I told you.
Denny.
Denny Salatino
2003-08-22 13:53:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by LASIK SOS
You answer cordially and then hours later when you see your friend,
associate, partner, boss or you pick it, try and flame me
you join in. Why are you trying to start trouble with me Denny? Don't answer
my question with a question instead answer my question about you before you
start in with your ongoing problems with other people.
Wes
****
My comment was directed at Mike. You picked up on a flame from Alex
and continued on with it. why not question him why he does that?
Is it to sucker someone in to start a flame and you were the sucker
by picking up on it and carrying on with it by referring to his
brothers remark and using it yourself? do you always take someone
else's words and run with it or do you think for yourself?
see how easy you got sucked in?
Denny.
Wesley White
2003-08-22 14:24:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denny Salatino
Post by LASIK SOS
You answer cordially and then hours later when you see your friend,
associate, partner, boss or you pick it, try and flame me
you join in. Why are you trying to start trouble with me Denny? Don't answer
my question with a question instead answer my question about you before you
start in with your ongoing problems with other people.
Wes
****
My comment was directed at Mike. You picked up on a flame from Alex
and continued on with it. why not question him why he does that?
Is it to sucker someone in to start a flame and you were the sucker
by picking up on it and carrying on with it by referring to his
brothers remark and using it yourself? do you always take someone
else's words and run with it or do you think for yourself?
see how easy you got sucked in?
Denny.
I have seen your sister post so I thought Mike was your brother. It really
looks that way to a casual observer. You both are the center of every flame
in this group. You both have problems with simple grammar and spelling as if
you both are uneducated. You both are constantly victimized. Neither of you
have ever been wrong about anything yet can never prove anything you say.
Both are disabled and seem to know how one can milk the system for all it is
worth. You both have difficulty with honesty and truth. You both are out of
touch with reality.

No, I don't need to take someone else's words all I have to do is read the
never ending babble and blather from the two of you. For Pete's sake Denny
you can't even develop your thoughts into one response. It takes you hours
and multiple postings to respond to one comment. Must be your genius getting
in the way.

Nice of you to share all you medical history Denny. You and your brother Dr
Feelgood are modern day medical miracles. Two piles of shit that can type.
Hoorah!

Can't wait for you 4 or 5 replies back. Can't wait for your brother to come
running to your defense.

Now watch carefully how I handle you flames and fits Denny and Feelgood. I
can do something you can't do. I will ignore you.


Wes


BTW: I know about crank due to my former job in law enforcement. I bet $100
neither of you admit you were wrong there. Bye bye loser brothers.
Denny Salatino
2003-08-23 16:17:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wesley White
Nice of you to share all you medical history Denny. You and your brother Dr
Feelgood are modern day medical miracles. Two piles of shit that can type.
Hoorah!
***
So here you are with flames again. nice talk from someone that thinks
they are better than most. you started that one.
****
Post by Wesley White
Can't wait for you 4 or 5 replies back. Can't wait for your brother to come
running to your defense.
****
you cna't spell either it seem's. read your own words above.
****
Anyway,Ok, just for you I will do just that. you love it and can't resist
responding can you? Ya see, idiot, if I post only one response you would
ignore it and go on your way since you have no proof of what you claim
to be,or was at one time,security guard in a K-Mart parking lot.
If I post several you just can't resist, showing how weak you are.
and you will answer because it burns a hole in your feeble mind.
just can't stand it can you?
Oh, you may come up with another alias and continue the game but in the end
you will lose anyway.
Denny.
Denny Salatino
2003-08-23 03:21:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Denny Salatino
Niether, we just want to know if crank cuts different on a NewYork
street than it does in a Tacoma sidewalk or alley?
Niether? Why would you want to know Denny? Just trying to get a flame going
again, aren't you? You and your brother. How weak and pathetic. You answer
cordially and then hours later when you see your brother try and flame me
you join in. Why are you trying to start trouble with me Denny?
Wes
****
What makes you think my answer was cordial? I didn't join any flame
contest either, my thoughts of your off the wall remarks were always
there,you just brought them out with your continuing flames.
you should really use different wording in your post's.
the way and wording you use gives way to who you are.
How weak and pathetic is one of them used by another alias here.
it's just amazing how a new name shows up when another has been shot down.
at least use different words.

Denny.
Wesley White
2003-08-20 20:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Dr. Feelgood
Thanks for sharing Denny. You are one of the many modern day medical
miracles. You must have been cut more than crank on a New York street.
Wes
You say that like someone with first hand experiance.
***
Yeah, guess he means cutting crank in New York, huh?
sounds like it.
Your first reply gave a brief history of your sugical procedures. Later you
come back with this reply. Is this also a weak attempt at a flame? Why the
cordial reply at 8am and then this weakness at 1pm? What is your problem
Denny?


Wes
Wesley White
2003-08-22 01:19:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wesley White
Thanks for sharing Denny. You are one of the many modern day medical
miracles. You must have been cut more than crank on a New York street.
Wes
Your first reply gave a brief history of your sugical procedures. Later you
come back with this reply. Is this also a weak attempt at a flame? Why the
cordial reply at 8am and then this weakness at 1pm? What is your problem
Denny?
Wes
*****
Not picking on you but I feel your first comment there was sarcastic
and meant to attempt a flame.
How is it you claim I made a sarcastic remark and tried to start a flame
with my first comment yet your reply to it was cordial and contained more of
your medical history and no mention of flame or sarcasm?
how would you know if I am a "modern day
medical miracle" just because of a laser procedure to the eyes?
lots of people have that done.
Sorry Denny. I consider a 100 holes poked in your eyeball successfully as a
modern day medical miracle the same way I do open heart surgery, organ
transplants and the other medical procedures performed routinely on
thousands of people every day.
I just wonered how you know about cutting crank on New York streets.
You did not mention anything about cutting crank until Dr Feelgood butted in
and started this trouble. If you can't be truthful Denny, just forget I
said anything. You don't have to be a druggie to make the remark I did
anymore than one has to be a Doctor to mention surgery or a pilot to talk
about planes. You strike me as paranoid and easily influenced by your friend
Dr Feelgood.


Wes
Denny Salatino
2003-08-22 13:38:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Wesley White
Sorry Denny. I consider a 100 holes poked in your eyeball successfully as a
modern day medical miracle the same way I do open heart surgery, organ
transplants and the other medical procedures performed routinely on
thousands of people every day.
****
The procedure I had done is common everyday stuff.
****
Post by Wesley White
I just wonered how you know about cutting crank on New York streets.
You did not mention anything about cutting crank until Dr Feelgood butted in
and started this trouble. If you can't be truthful Denny, just forget I
said anything. You don't have to be a druggie to make the remark I did
anymore than one has to be a Doctor to mention surgery or a pilot to talk
about planes. You strike me as paranoid and easily influenced by your friend
Dr Feelgood.
Wes
*****
No, I didn't mention anything about crank, but you did and I find it
offensive to the conversation. since when do you compare that with laser
procedures? I should have said something at first but thought I would
see where you took it.
You took the words of Alex and ran with it.
why do you call Mike and I brothers? because Alex did? so you follow him.
why don't you answer to that question about the brother bit?
you skip right over that and ask another question of me,
then complain that I answered you with a question.
You made comment to surgerys and I answered that.
what else are you looking for?
Denny.
Richard Ness
2003-08-18 19:51:47 UTC
Permalink
At the time I had it done, it was $1K per eye here in the states.
It was $1K for both up in BC. By a very established outfit.

As the son of an Ophthalmologist, I am very aware of the risks, etc.
Also, being exposed to ophthalmic 'stuff' all my life, I've seen the
progress corrective eye surgery has had. With a correction (before)
of -750 and -775, I was a candidate for many years. I wore contacts
since I was 12, (I was a trial subject for the 1st ever soft lenses).
Glasses since I was quite young. Progressivly worse as I aged.

So, 1st there was RK, which was somewhat effective, but considered
outright butchery now. Then laser surgery, then LASIK. I waited a
number of years for it to be 'perfected', or to the point that I thought
that
the risk level was acceptable to me. That was a few years ago now.

I still think that it is a miracle. I see better than 20/20, quite a bit in
fact.
Post by Richard Ness
Now let's talk about the multitudes of people that think
LASIK is a MIRACLE and what a difference it made in their lives.
Me included. I would have it done again, in a heartbeat...
As with ANY elective surgery, there is a risk. This has become quite
common,
and also much cheaper as time goes on. Because of this there will
occasionally be problems. Of course many of the stories you hear of
problems
are people who looked for the cheapest possible price. If I ever elect to
let them operate on my eye site, I would not shop around for the cheapest
possible price, especially if that meant going to another country for the
service, but to each his own.
Now of course to the handful of people who have had problems this does
not
help, BUT THEY still made the CHOICE to take the chance.
g***@gmail.com
2014-07-24 02:49:37 UTC
Permalink
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